11/26/1996 14:30 – Municipal School of Music

Music in EMEI – Musical Monitors Training (Click to see the original interview)

Interview with Professor Nereide Schilaro Santa Rosa on the formation project of musical monitors enabling them to teach music to children in pre-school age. The interview is part of the doctoral thesis of Sonia Regina Albano Lima entitled “Municipal School of Music creation and development,” PUC São Paulo 1999 424 pages.
1. Why did you set out to do this project and why did you choose the EMM?
N- In 1993, we started the work with the Technique Guidance Division of Child Education. There were responsible for all the musical area of the Municipal Schools Early Childhood Education, the EMEI. In the city of São Paulo, there are 350 EMEI. I started to work with that of music education bailout bill, together with these institutions. First, we conducted a survey of the network. We sent a questionnaire to schools asking if there was some musical work with children from 4 to 6 years of age, which is the appropriate age to Emei. The difficulties faced and what the interest in implementing this particular purpose. The answer of this research is even published in the Official Gazette of the time. Virtually 100% of schools expressed interest in developing this musical education work. And they wanted an expert in the area because the teachers were working in these schools – the preschool teachers has not scientific and pedagogical knowledge of how to work the music. The schools asked for the return of the musical expert if only because, since 1935, when it was founded the first playground in the city of São Paulo, had the presence of the music educator. It was a job well regarded, and this professional developed a series of activities in all playgrounds. At the time, there was a health educator, the teacher of physical education and a music educator. That happened around until 1975. By this time there were always people working on music education, ensuring work with music by the child of 4 to 6 years in Municipal Schools Early Childhood Education. With the law guidelines and 1972 bases, if I remember precisely, we were advised that there was no more music education but the teaching of arts education. Thus, the expert, the professional music, was ending. In MGSP, the position of music educator was extinguished “in vacancy.” That means that people who they retired were not replaced in office. Virtually ended the post of music teacher in EMEI. Last year, these professionals have become full professors of elementary school – Normal teacher, without any discrimination or expertise. So in view of this research and the requests of these institutions to return to music education in EMEI. Since teachers do not work with music, they sing at most one little song, hear a record and is this level of performance, and experiential, a thing empirical because they understand music this way. We wanted to restore the importance of music education for the building of the child’s knowledge, her cognitive development and clarify them how important it is to act with the child with music.

2. I’d like you to talk a bit about this musical cognitive work, that subject interest for my dissertation.
N- Let me just go back to the first question, and then i will answer that question. Why look for the School of Music? From this request the EMEI, I with the Director of the Division, Silvia Paul, went looking for people who had the knowledge of music. I followed these institutions. The EMM that first year helped me a lot, talked to Henry, with Eliete, they loved the idea, because, really, was opening the door for new music of professional fields. If we could turn the music on the playground would be great. In the first year (1993) we did a job with the EMM. not with the trainees, did didactic presentations with EMM teachers who were with the children of EMEI. We took the teachers with a van DOT and children attended the presentations and complementávamos this work with a pedagogical orientation, ie, how to make this presentation in the classroom. Came several teachers of EMM: Kiszely, Maria Elisa Risarto and others. They presented showing the instruments, spoke some of the composers and works and then we guided them teachers of linking this work, for example, in the reading room in the Portuguese classes, math, finally, to a number of areas even design and the artistic part. Anyway, we have traveled this path in the first year. Was a resounding success. People began to realize the importance and the unique opportunity that was offered to children in the outskirts of Sao Paulo. we went to Itaquera, Grajaú – far from it. There were children who did not know what a violin, a saxophone, which was a well played piano. Often, the pianos of EMEI were thrown in the corner, had never been used and were being used as closet,Nothing was imposed, consultávamos the team to know of your interest in participating in the project. To follow up the proposal and research, we decided to start the pilot project of Musical Monitor Training. What’s this? It would really redeem the role of music educator in EMEI: that person expert working with the child. Because, you see, while we were doing these didactic presentations, our DOT music team oriented lay teachers. With this feel that you teach and advance with this personal to some extent. You explain that the little band is so, the coral is so c gives the most varied orientations, but the lay teacher has a limit, then it does not advance more and is in music for music. We wanted this pedagogical value. Because people and even the teachers, see music as a fragrance for a party. “We will prepare” a little party the end of the year, Mother’s Day and thus introduces music in schools.It’s out there, what we wanted, and got in the last year. was to show the importance of cognitive music. We went again with Eliete to ask – “What do you think of opening this space ?” It is how an unpaid internship and can not compel a student in those conditions.” She found it great. Then I was struck, there was a great interest of these students, they wanted to make this internship by experience and opportunity to acquire the knowledge. For us, it was also important to have a staff with a satisfactory experience despite not having didactic pedagogical knowledge of how to work with the children. It was a very rich experience in this sense, there was a significant change, the EMEI liked. Must you have had access to the reports? All loved, but there were some problems. We had to adapt these trainees to a children’s class because they had no didactic experience, and we had a short time to spend so much information. Even so, I found the highly satisfactory result.

3. Could you provide how many schools were favored?
N – In 1994, twenty EMEI participated. IN 1995 about twelve EMEI, or something like that. In 94 benefited 4,000 children and 1995 and about 3000.

4. Because this project stopped at 96 as it came to be the object of communication in education congress?N- That is right, it was released in Congress, but the City Department of Education, there is a hierarchy. We have the City Department of Education, the SUTENE, which is the Municipal Superintendent of the City, the DOT which is the Technical Guidance Division. By the end of 95, there were the DOT 1, DOT 2, DOT 3, legally established. The DOT 3 where we worked reached the EMEI, taking care of early childhood education. The DOT 2 took care of the first degree, and the DOT 1 took care of adult education. Late last year, there was an internal restructuring in these divisions and not legal because to be the legal restructuring, it should be appreciated by the City Council or something similar. I do not know how it all went, I only have the knowledge you just left these divisions and one sector that is the Curriculum Supervision that includes child and Io grade education. With this, my director resigned and with it most of his staff, we stayed in 4 or 5 people. Earlier, there were around thirty or so people. The new Director named said: – “We will continue the project because it interests and had great results” and even more so because I had remained. Practically, this project was very attached to my person. We went behind the UNESP and EMM, however, as I was about to retire, I spent all the guidance for those who would continue and that, however, not given. I learned that, two months ago.

5.There is a great interest of our school in this project, but unfortunately not up to us. Could you tell me how UNESP entered this project?
N – When the project started to take effect, UNESP entered. In the first year only work with the EMM.

6, You searched the school for their free will?
N – Yes. But before I was behind other institutions such as the ACE. I had a good reception, but there was that year a student interested in the project and only three students studying Degree in Music. In UNESP, there were four or five students. Absurd, there is no music licensed professional! Nobody works with music in schools, specifically in arts education. I write this article here: You don’t have professional because it has no field, but it turns out also can not open the field for the music professional. “In the municipal scope, we were trying to open the way but we don’t have professionals to work in this area. In UNESP, they had no musical knowledge. Because you can get for college students who do not know anything about music. Then there was a group in EMM with an expressive musical knowledge, fantastic musicians. It was funny because I was talking about the little musical band EMM, and there was no sense, they knew much more. So what we did was to teach them how to communicate with a four to six years. We seminars to explain precisely the educational part of the project.

7. So you felt that the EMM there were people with good musical knowledge, but without a university degree and other institutions had enabled people without enough musical knowledge?
N – Yes. The Students of EMM had musical experience, but not the degree nor the pedagogical teaching knowledge, only knew how to play music.

8. Do you think the work was satisfactory?
N- Yes. Volunteers were interested, and that was key. We locate people at EMEI near their homes or close to work to facilitate. We had some cases of dropouts during the internship, because, sometimes, appeared a job and the person prioritized this. Had lots of unusual cases of trainees who had studied that EMEI as a child and returned to teach, they felt amazed, and reception at EMEI was splendid.

9. What about the children?
N – Worshiped. We have a video on the DOT Library documenting this work on the music. It’s called “Music in EMEI” ‘. It has scenes of students from EMM working with children. It’s a cute, working with violin, piano and with children.

10. Do you think this project will not be rebuilt?
N – Well, as you know, the City Hall works on the basis of who is the Secretary, who is the mayor! Each administration forwards the pedagogical orientation in a different way. I, as a retired, I went through several departments, I know how things are processed. Janio Quadros gave a referral, Erundina other, Covas other, Maluf too. Is there a possibility of continuity in this Pitta management but it is not known who will be the Secretary and whether it will have the same “staff” that previously existed. Anyhow, we are waiting. I do not return to work in EMEI. I will be prepared for those who request my opinion; I know that many of the people there can work on this project.

11- It means that the project actually stopped at 96?
N – Yes. You know, it’s something you believe in what you do, I always believed. Got into this administration in order to recapture to music education. That was my intention and until the last day before leaving my retirement. I was behind a counselor. I gave to him a report and said, ” Look if it is possible to do a bill to that effect, because the EMEI need it, need a musical educator. I went behind; I knocked on the door. It is a claw thing, to want to have it as ideal. I do not know to what extent other people will be involved, will have this ideal, this claw. I struggled a lot in four years, with the EMEI, to raise awareness of the importance of the work that led to the pedagogical project in which we work hard in the last yearLast year, I researched next to EMEI, which preschool teachers who had a degree in music and the necessary musical knowledge if they apply to a contest. That is because my idea was to make a tender, including students of EMM that participated in the project. Would make this competition for the municipal network, wanted to know how many people will probably be interested, it was early last year. But the legality of this is difficult, you need to have a lot of political power, and I didn’t had so much power. That there were this restructuring and my director resigned. Do you understand? I called the people who located in the research, and we were doing a monthly training course. We met with this group, and we passed the guidelines on the issue of constructive work with music. Then. I’ll answer that your question. As we believed that should be this work? The child of the sensorimotor period to 2 or 3 years mimics. So the beginning of the music work is by imitation; you do that exercise of rhythm and sound and the child imitates. But you can not only get it, but you have to question the child so that she rethink the activity and propose new actions. So, for example, I’m working with sound intensity. I suggest to the child: – ‘”Sing stronger, weaker You can sing different Sing different, distinctive ring, and then we had the tools.?” Is at that moment when she rethinks and reconstructs your musical knowledge. That should be the questioning attitude of the teacher. He or she must always be present at all times, including to work with the child towards create their individual musical notation. We have developed this work with the network teachers, not with the staff of the EMM. We work with musical notation created by the child, based on this work imitation of the sound qualities of rhythm. The child began to record the things her way; that was cool because we got to measure the sound. There was a similar progress that the psychogenesis of Emilia Ferreiro. I usually say it’s a psychogenesis to the musical construction. I have everything documented, children with the earliest forms of musical notation, then it advances from that teacher questioning. Of course, the teacher has to have a musical minimum knowledge to be able to request things correctly, until you reach the metric, the issue of sound duration after arriving in the traditional musical notation.

12. So is a scientific work, it is not only sing?
N – No, on the contrary.

13. That is very interesting. After all, the project was stopped, but it is important to note the extent that he could have and was not due to bureaucratic obstacles, or others.
N – Not just that, there is the problem of the minimum number of professionals in the area. I don’t have a group, I followed, as I said, from USP, UNESP … If only I had thirty, forty, fifty people were working, would have covered the entire network.

14. You could not have these students in EMM because they were not prepared pedagogically.
N – Yes, but also because the stage was unpaid so could not be mandatory. In UNESP, last year told how the stage in the Arts Education Degree Course with Specialization in Music. Dr. Maria Helena recognized the importance of the project and put it as part of the curriculum in the program.

15. There was this possibility with the EMM?
N – No, because the EMM it is a free school and is not even recognized. The Henrique said that at the opening of the process. So I not had suitable and sufficient professionals to carry out the project. The professional, you do not find. It’s like I said before: you do not find the field to have the professional and at the same time, you don’t have professionals to create the field. That is a parameter. I had for three years full support of my Director; she fought, fought. So much, so that when we left the project, people did not have enough stamina to continue. If we had had a back, we would have grown a lot. For example, the same type of project was carried out in physical education with a colleague of mine. He got a bill that allowed the return of physical education in EMEI. How come? There is a Faculty of Physical Education how 200 people annually. Among these, let’s say 100 are interested in the degree and will not be professor a sports academy. With us is different. I work with that students interested in music it means, the staff of the EMM but has no legal support because it has no pedagogical training, or I go to UNESP. I asked for help to the Faculty Mozarteum and Marcelo Tupinambá. In UNESP c ACE you already know, at ECA there was only one person who served a few months in the EMEI Sumaré, that is if it happens in Sao Paulo how will be like in Brazil? What’s happening? It’s crazy! I mean, you see the teach of music actually lost. I always say in my lectures: “The people, the Brazilians have a wrong idea of music, they think it is a futile thing, a perfumery”. How come? In every corner, you can find a person doing a song, drumming. So for us it is music. It is different from the approach that we have in Europe, yes they value the music. The problem is in our culture that treats music as a futile thing. Note the private academies! I, personally, if I had not retired would have continued the project. The problem lies in the fact that we did not show up politically as much as we should. There was not a satisfactory impact on our work.

16. In particular, I think this will never happen in the musical area!
N- But when you deal with the Department of Education, Department of Culture, you have to have a particular political support because otherwise nothing happens.

17. Yes, I analyzed the entire project. I summarize that brochure that Eliete gave me, and I realized that there were few classes and seminars that would be given.
N – Yes, they were lessons per week for twenty minutes. The trainee had to do two hours a week. There were 36 total hours, which corresponded to a period of two to three months, depending on holidays. The time arrangement in EMEI was done with the Pedagogical Coordinator; we do not interferíamos this part. We wanted an integration of the trainee with the School: with the Coordinator, the Director, with teachers and that this was not seen as an obstacle, a problem. The school is saying – “Look their schedules are these Ours are these We will combine which classes you will attend the period…” That was all internal standard school. The trainee had a stage form to be completed, signed by the director and an evaluation report, asking what he had found work, the difficulties encountered. At the same time, the EMEI also sent its assessment after we crossed the information.

18. I saw the information; they were excellent even. You mean there was not really a hindrance by any of these public schools?
N – Not at all.

19. What happened was stopping this project in 96 as a result of his retirement and the fact that there is someone to give a continuity?
N – Well I tried.

20. Until what year there was the music educator function?
N – Until approximately 1980, there were some music teachers.

21. This Musical educator worked that way?
N – Practically, taught the children to sing.

22. Do you consider this is a remnant of mass culture, or merely a routine phenomenon in Brazilian education does not teach music seriously?
N – I think it is cultural and, society itself does not give the music a training profile of the individual’s intelligence.

23. Do you have bibliographic support on this issue?
N- There is much in this regard. Violet Gainza talks much about it, but this approach of the children develop their musical notation is an unpublished work.
24. Have you published it?
N- Not yet. Sent a proposal for Scipione publisher where I have some books published by, to Tales publisher, and Atica publisher. Everything is under study, also sent a summary to the “International Office of Music Education”, which organized a Congress this year. I did not have an answer yet.

25. It would be interesting this publication. That is a reference work.
N- Exactly. I have saved the material that the children made and the video; everything is documented. I have the handout of DOT talking about it. I can even get one for you.

26. I would like because I intend to demonstrate how music education is undervalued by society.
N- It is not valued by school.

27. It is because music does not bring a return. It’s just like you exposed. Those working in other areas offer to society this return. Take the case of Physical Education, appreciation of the body, all these things …
N- There is also a Faculty of Arts Education in which it does not teach right or music, or art, or the body. It means that the person gets lost, does not know how to reconcile things. You work a little performing arts, a little art, a little music and does not work anything deeply; you lose the specificity of things.

28. Sometimes I talked about this issue.
N- This is a serious problem. Should change the Law of Guidelines and Bases.

29. It seems that the current, which will come into force, is a little worse.
N- It`s true, the last I heard was that worsened considerably, not speak or music education and much less of arts education. It seems that even arts education will no longer be mandatory. A horror!

30. Behind all this is a very technical view in all this!
N- Yes. Note, some people consider the music just as expressiveness, do not see this cognitive side. Had colleagues in the DOT who felt pure music expression. I do counterpoint. I teach theory, precisely because there must be a mediation in this type of work you have to work the right hemisphere and the left hemisphere of the brain in children.

31. Would It have something more to say about this cognitive function of music in early childhood education?
N- I have this text and a booklet written by me and published by DOT.

32. Could I promote your work on my dissertation? Of course attributing authorship to your person.
N- It is public. Think is great. There is a book published by Cortez talking about musical notation for children but does not have the same approach is more general. It’s an experiment conducted with a small group of children. The our covered the municipal network, almost in its entirety. We recorded what was called iconographic brands, in which the child register the sound source and musical themes. For example, is playing on the radio a waltz, they draw a ballerina or a radio, is music coming from the radio. These are called iconographic brands. Advancing learning, that child will use symbols to represent the sound, it is the figural notation. Then will join with rhythmic patterns, metric, intensity, duration, to what we call metric notation. For example, look at this, the child sang: – “Borboletinha [close] in the kitchen [close], washing clothes [close] …” She’s going to have a certain notion of metric, size, pace, compass, but that she makes her way, another child can use the same music and noted otherwise.

33. Do you believe that the study of music in children may develop more abstract reasoning of the child?
N – Certainly. The problem, Sonia, is that the sound is not concrete, is an object that produces sound. You do not catch the sound. The difficult for children in this age group is to understand what is sound! Because she sees, is as I told you, it first records the sound source, which produces the sound. That is concrete to her, but the sound itself is abstract. That is a great fight I have with the followers of Piaget, because you have to start from concrete to reach the abstract. See Piaget. As you work reversibility of thought, a the conservation of quantity? You put the same amount of water or clay in different containers, and the child does not notice. When she comes to understand, she already got a sense of what is conservation, and especially number conservation. So I talk to Piaget followers. “Guys, there is a conservation of the sound. The child has to understand to get the most elaborate musical notation, – reversibility in thought to know that a half note is worth two musical notes of the fourth and vice versa. You need to work it specifically with the child’s body, with the object, with the sound, and from this it will build, make your notation, by simple observation. ”

34. That brings the child to develop an abstract reasoning.
N- Yes, to get an abstract knowledge, it has to start it. Who studies music in this way, develops the abstract reasoning faster . I think that we never learn music in this manner. In my day, we entered direct in more abstract concepts. Never build the music, not the children, not adults. Everyone should study music this way. If start with this sequence of work, will better understand the abstract concepts of music and will build more music. That’s why I say it is a “psychogenesis” is not only working with children, but is to work with the individual, the man in general. maybe one day we may disclose that work and more people will be able to study c deepen it. We had a unique opportunity, and the result was excellent.

35. You have addressed these issues in the seminars that were held in the EMM for our trainees?
N -. No, we take care only to teach how to deal with children in the classroom. These interns had no idea how to control a group of children. You see. Usually the music teacher teaches to a minimum group of children, 2 or 3, or even individual classes most of the time. In EMEI had 30-35 children that require attention all the time could not read and in these cases you have to give direct activity, that is where we guided them.

36. In Congress, there was interest in this subject?N- People asked a lot, were sympathetic to the cause, because, in fact, everyone thinks important that the rescue of the music, make room for the music teacher.

37. I have observed this congress a primary concern in this regard. Why do you think this does not happen?
N- It is complicated. I saw a lot of interest of the Association of Musical Instruments Manufacturers; they have much interest that the music back to schools. I think that lack a political, financial support. Moreover, education is a serious problem in the country, what say of the music education that is a fraction of the education as a whole!

38. That obviously does not bring any financial return.
N – I think if we cherish this cognitive music at least will start to change the mind of the teacher himself. The devaluation of music education takes place within the school, within of the pedagogical orientation of schools. I have a book published by Scipione of Sweet flute. Sells not much, it is not business as a math book, story or Portuguese. Does not bring a commercial return for publishers.

39. It would be that I should ask you. Would you like to say anything else?
N – I think not. I said everything. I spoke of the problems and fruits picked in this project. Shame that people do not put their hands dirty and do not give their face to beat. I am sure I have my mission accomplished. While acting did my best always with the support of my Director of Eliete and Henrique, who were wonderful from the start. I hoped it happen again in 1997. That will depend on the policy. But somehow, the children’s of that time already required to be in the first degree took something for life, they took to their homes a lot of information. I think with these 5,000 children who reached the agent, was satisfactory, despite all the problems we face.

40. Nereide can publish, paraphrase or edit this interview.N- Yes, if you want to show me then I’ll be happy. I also remember that at the beginning of our talks with the EMM, much discussed this issue of school primary objective in preparing instrumentalist for the orchestra, while our hang him was purely pedagogical. It is concluded that the main for the two units was valuing music, and this would be the only way to achieve this intent. At least, these children could be in the future, listeners of the Municipal Symphony Orchestra and have a reasonable knowledge of music.